This resonates with me to an uncomfortable degree--I always joke that my school friends were Barbies, but that's because they fit the Swedish beauty ideal, and it definitely showed, so I always considered myself ~The DUFF~
But I have more to say on this "Is it hot to envy another woman’s looks?" makes me wonder how much of this is about misunderstanding dynamics between women/girls because within fandom spaces, yes. That type of fixation is considered romantic, ex Yellowjackets' Shauna & Jackie; fandom has reframed what we see of Shauna as a lesbian obsession. I remember seeing that for MSCL's Angela and Rayanne as well. Or maybe it's not misunderstanding as much as wishful thinking? I don't know. It seems to always come from observers though.
ETA: and dur, of course Archie's Betty and Veronica which did get portrayed as a hot relationship ultimately in Riverdale.
Agree about the intense fixation - I’m really not sure if there is a genuine homosexual element or not. As a young teen when I fixated on an older role model girl, I felt I wanted to become her but was also really enthralled by her beauty and kind of wanted to worship it/her.
It’s hard to explain, not sure I’ve managed it. Could just be the hormones at that age honestly!
Would love to know if boys feel something similar as well?
I don't think that as a boy I gave a single thought - like, literally, not one - to the way other boys looked. I did note their athletic performance, whether they were smarter, faster, stronger. And whether they were nice, funny, or dangerous.
I also thought pretty much all girls were pretty. I think if women knew how much men liked them, they'd be perpetually amazed and maybe alarmed. (But not denying the dangers some present, of course, or the complexities of relationships.)
That’s so interesting to hear! I wonder if it’s something to do with the different things girls/boys value in older peers and want to emulate? It makes sense that athletic performance and personality would be higher on a guy’s list. For women I would say it’s looks (including personal grooming) and personality.
I think you are right - girls would be a bit alarmed (but also amused!) at how much guys liked them. As teens girls are brutal on themselves over their looks, because we can judge other women harshly on theirs and compare ourselves… not sure if that will ever change tbh.
Right, except that I think for me there might be a different dynamic on emulation. I'm not sure I emulated any "peer" at all. I emulated people too far above me to be considered peers. "Heroes" might be a better word for it, although that suggests some sort of unattainability I don't intend. I concerned myself very little with actual peers. That could be the result of some eccentric upbringing, idk.
Yeah, perhaps I didn’t word it correctly, it was a kind of hero worship of the girls for sure. Girls might tend to ‘imitate’ a lot more than boys, not sure.
Lots of layers to this piece, I enjoyed it but also found it uncomfortable in the way she articulates some ugly honesty. Female friendships have such strange and intense dynamics - particularly in high school!
For those who are late bloomers it can be very hard to objectively identify what your ‘hotness’ level is, especially if you’ve gone through life as the ‘ugly’ or less attractive friend. That takes time, and may be delayed if self esteem is very low.
That being said, my own observations have been that girls/women will be extremely rude to/about a girl that is very beautiful, sometimes sinking into nasty bullying. All to keep her in her place - but this only really works on girls with low self esteem.
One thing I always wondered about was the way I viewed other girls - was I looking at them with a kind of learned ‘male‘ gaze, a homoerotic gaze, or to judge how I ranked with the ‘competition’ (aka intrasexual competition). So many hormones, so confusing lol.
Interesting note regarding 30 Rock, a frumpy Rachel Dratch was originally planned to play Jenna Maroney. But, she got replaced by Jane Krakowski after Dratch appeared in the pilot. Evidently, executives thought having 2 frumpy characters was too much for the series. They thought a more attractive Krakowski was needed to balance out Tina Fey's frumpy character. Dratch was demoted for random bit parts throughout the series.
I never bought the idea of Tina Fey as frumpy. She's a genuinely attractive woman. It's only through acting that we can buy the idea of Liz Lemon as frumpy. Even then, it doesn't quite work. The character ends up marrying James Marsden of all people. Marsden is a very attractive dude.
"What is she doing with that man, when she could get anyone?" this is what I tend to think and I tend also to think it when I see a woman who is still great but a couple of steps down the ladder from "Wow!" with some asshole guy who treats her like shit and to whom she´s devoted
This resonates with me to an uncomfortable degree--I always joke that my school friends were Barbies, but that's because they fit the Swedish beauty ideal, and it definitely showed, so I always considered myself ~The DUFF~
But I have more to say on this "Is it hot to envy another woman’s looks?" makes me wonder how much of this is about misunderstanding dynamics between women/girls because within fandom spaces, yes. That type of fixation is considered romantic, ex Yellowjackets' Shauna & Jackie; fandom has reframed what we see of Shauna as a lesbian obsession. I remember seeing that for MSCL's Angela and Rayanne as well. Or maybe it's not misunderstanding as much as wishful thinking? I don't know. It seems to always come from observers though.
ETA: and dur, of course Archie's Betty and Veronica which did get portrayed as a hot relationship ultimately in Riverdale.
Agree about the intense fixation - I’m really not sure if there is a genuine homosexual element or not. As a young teen when I fixated on an older role model girl, I felt I wanted to become her but was also really enthralled by her beauty and kind of wanted to worship it/her.
It’s hard to explain, not sure I’ve managed it. Could just be the hormones at that age honestly!
Would love to know if boys feel something similar as well?
I don't think that as a boy I gave a single thought - like, literally, not one - to the way other boys looked. I did note their athletic performance, whether they were smarter, faster, stronger. And whether they were nice, funny, or dangerous.
I also thought pretty much all girls were pretty. I think if women knew how much men liked them, they'd be perpetually amazed and maybe alarmed. (But not denying the dangers some present, of course, or the complexities of relationships.)
That’s so interesting to hear! I wonder if it’s something to do with the different things girls/boys value in older peers and want to emulate? It makes sense that athletic performance and personality would be higher on a guy’s list. For women I would say it’s looks (including personal grooming) and personality.
I think you are right - girls would be a bit alarmed (but also amused!) at how much guys liked them. As teens girls are brutal on themselves over their looks, because we can judge other women harshly on theirs and compare ourselves… not sure if that will ever change tbh.
Right, except that I think for me there might be a different dynamic on emulation. I'm not sure I emulated any "peer" at all. I emulated people too far above me to be considered peers. "Heroes" might be a better word for it, although that suggests some sort of unattainability I don't intend. I concerned myself very little with actual peers. That could be the result of some eccentric upbringing, idk.
Yeah, perhaps I didn’t word it correctly, it was a kind of hero worship of the girls for sure. Girls might tend to ‘imitate’ a lot more than boys, not sure.
Lots of layers to this piece, I enjoyed it but also found it uncomfortable in the way she articulates some ugly honesty. Female friendships have such strange and intense dynamics - particularly in high school!
For those who are late bloomers it can be very hard to objectively identify what your ‘hotness’ level is, especially if you’ve gone through life as the ‘ugly’ or less attractive friend. That takes time, and may be delayed if self esteem is very low.
That being said, my own observations have been that girls/women will be extremely rude to/about a girl that is very beautiful, sometimes sinking into nasty bullying. All to keep her in her place - but this only really works on girls with low self esteem.
One thing I always wondered about was the way I viewed other girls - was I looking at them with a kind of learned ‘male‘ gaze, a homoerotic gaze, or to judge how I ranked with the ‘competition’ (aka intrasexual competition). So many hormones, so confusing lol.
Interesting note regarding 30 Rock, a frumpy Rachel Dratch was originally planned to play Jenna Maroney. But, she got replaced by Jane Krakowski after Dratch appeared in the pilot. Evidently, executives thought having 2 frumpy characters was too much for the series. They thought a more attractive Krakowski was needed to balance out Tina Fey's frumpy character. Dratch was demoted for random bit parts throughout the series.
I never bought the idea of Tina Fey as frumpy. She's a genuinely attractive woman. It's only through acting that we can buy the idea of Liz Lemon as frumpy. Even then, it doesn't quite work. The character ends up marrying James Marsden of all people. Marsden is a very attractive dude.
"What is she doing with that man, when she could get anyone?" this is what I tend to think and I tend also to think it when I see a woman who is still great but a couple of steps down the ladder from "Wow!" with some asshole guy who treats her like shit and to whom she´s devoted