I think for some of these guys it's jealousy and resentment that women have any power at all. The neg as you say works on a personal level (make the woman insecure); lashing out against Margot Robbie is more of a meta-neg, against a woman having visibility, making money, in ways not only beyond what these guys will ever have but beyond what they think women deserve.
I agree on the personal neg-- I'm reminded of when men get turned down and lash out in response, "you're fat/ugly anyway," or "you think you can go better/who do you think you are" type of responses.
Did I miss your writing on *My Body*?! I’m so fascinated by the premise of this memoir (though admittedly not even to read it...) and I wish you’d say more. Love your work and perspective, Phoebe!
What do you think is the equivalent of calling a man "mid," and not just limited to looks? Or is that a male advantage, in that we don't have one dominant make-or-break self-esteem and power category?
I remember reading a book when I was a teenager in which the main character and her best friend (both also teenage girls) rated dudes as either hotties, doable, or un-doable. But aside from teen girl fantasies, these do not seem to be something that permeates.
I agree, and to get esoteric with it, it reminds me of a bit of Jacques Lacan esque existential philosophizing, "Women as platonic ideal" exists as a symbolic but as consequence women as individuals do not? I haven't read any western canon philosophy but from following Jane Clare Jones I know it has roots in western dualism, trying not to use the word "misogyny" but it has real echoes with current "What is a woman" moment
This is a really interesting thing to bring up for discussion, and coincidentally pretty timely too within my own life since I just had a pretty lengthy conversation/argument with a close friend about why, despite being otherwise pretty conscientious about our choices in words, this one in particular has suddenly, seemingly unintentionally leaked into so many of our conversations as of late.
My suspicion is that, at least in conversation, the word is most often used far less as any judgement of the thing or person being described as "mid", as it is a (mostly, usually facetious...) judgement of the tastes, or apparent lack thereof, of the person being accused of liking something or someone that's being deemed "mid".
For example, in my circle of close male friends, we have one friend who almost exclusively dates very conventionally attractive, white blonde women (none of us are white, which I think alters the dynamic a bit too), whom we regularly call "mid" to his face despite fairly obviously recognising otherwise. After reading your thoughts here, I've come to realise in a lot of ways that, for myself at least, it's more likely than not a means of coping, first and foremost, with the fact that, even though I'm not even attracted at all to that particular set of traits within a person I'd consider dating, I still feel some kind of lingering anxiety about the fact that "society" (or some imagined greater category of other men) may negatively judge the fact that I tend not to date those kinds of women; and so calling the women he finds attractive "mid" becomes this thing that allows me to reclaim some agency over the fact that, on some level, under some warped and unhealthy metric of masculinity, his ability to be recognised as more "traditionally" masculine than me leaves me at times feeling insecure about my own position as a man. It's a way of kinda shittily protecting yourself from your own insecurities by dragging someone else whom you envy down to your own perceived level by association of the apparent mediocrity of their interests.
In another way though, I do think the underlying mechanism of it is in fact gender-neutral, although the specific framing of calling a woman mid is a pretty specifically male-coded version of it, that externalises the anxiety rather than internalising it. I think about it a lot in terms of that age-old trope of the woman who finds a sense of empowerment in aggressively rejecting her suitors despite their obvious status and wealth and occasionally even physical beauty, as a sign of superior (and/or just plain idiosyncratic sometimes) discernment and taste of her own. By denying the most conventionally coveted individuals their outward recognitions of value, you establish yourself as someone who's capable of resisting the otherwise hopelessly frustrating and often seemingly inescapable definitions of who "wins" in society and who doesn't. Of course, I also could easily buy that that entire trope in itself is a feminised approximation of male patriarchal envy, so...
Regardless, I'm glad you covered this! It's an interesting topic and something I never really thought seriously about it for any sustained period until now, so thank you for creating a space to do so.
Hope what I am about to say is germane. Curious as well if (straight) women ever experience the same feelings about male actors vs. their characters.
Jenna Fischer is quite lovely but I am smitten by "Pam".
Lizzy Caplan is fetching but give me "Libby Epstein". (Fleishman was a fool to not go for her)
Cristin Milioti - sparkling as herself but I want Sarah Wilder.
Victoria Pedretti - it ought to be illegal to go out in public so cute but I want her to be Nell Crain. (for a while anyway - "Hill House" fans will understand)
and so on ...
I remember an interview from way back, where Julia Louis-Dreyfus said something to the effect of "I'm not as pretty as Elaine". I understand what she was getting at.
My best guess as to why I experience the "wow" factor more with these women as characters even more so than their "ordinary" selves (which, face it, aint bad either) is the confidence or "way they carry themselves" playing these parts.
I wonder if that is related to what one often hears about how women value "confidence" as a turn-on when evaluating men?
I think for some of these guys it's jealousy and resentment that women have any power at all. The neg as you say works on a personal level (make the woman insecure); lashing out against Margot Robbie is more of a meta-neg, against a woman having visibility, making money, in ways not only beyond what these guys will ever have but beyond what they think women deserve.
I agree on the personal neg-- I'm reminded of when men get turned down and lash out in response, "you're fat/ugly anyway," or "you think you can go better/who do you think you are" type of responses.
Did I miss your writing on *My Body*?! I’m so fascinated by the premise of this memoir (though admittedly not even to read it...) and I wish you’d say more. Love your work and perspective, Phoebe!
Yes, now I want Phoebe’s take in My Body, too!
What do you think is the equivalent of calling a man "mid," and not just limited to looks? Or is that a male advantage, in that we don't have one dominant make-or-break self-esteem and power category?
I remember reading a book when I was a teenager in which the main character and her best friend (both also teenage girls) rated dudes as either hotties, doable, or un-doable. But aside from teen girl fantasies, these do not seem to be something that permeates.
I agree, and to get esoteric with it, it reminds me of a bit of Jacques Lacan esque existential philosophizing, "Women as platonic ideal" exists as a symbolic but as consequence women as individuals do not? I haven't read any western canon philosophy but from following Jane Clare Jones I know it has roots in western dualism, trying not to use the word "misogyny" but it has real echoes with current "What is a woman" moment
This is a really interesting thing to bring up for discussion, and coincidentally pretty timely too within my own life since I just had a pretty lengthy conversation/argument with a close friend about why, despite being otherwise pretty conscientious about our choices in words, this one in particular has suddenly, seemingly unintentionally leaked into so many of our conversations as of late.
My suspicion is that, at least in conversation, the word is most often used far less as any judgement of the thing or person being described as "mid", as it is a (mostly, usually facetious...) judgement of the tastes, or apparent lack thereof, of the person being accused of liking something or someone that's being deemed "mid".
For example, in my circle of close male friends, we have one friend who almost exclusively dates very conventionally attractive, white blonde women (none of us are white, which I think alters the dynamic a bit too), whom we regularly call "mid" to his face despite fairly obviously recognising otherwise. After reading your thoughts here, I've come to realise in a lot of ways that, for myself at least, it's more likely than not a means of coping, first and foremost, with the fact that, even though I'm not even attracted at all to that particular set of traits within a person I'd consider dating, I still feel some kind of lingering anxiety about the fact that "society" (or some imagined greater category of other men) may negatively judge the fact that I tend not to date those kinds of women; and so calling the women he finds attractive "mid" becomes this thing that allows me to reclaim some agency over the fact that, on some level, under some warped and unhealthy metric of masculinity, his ability to be recognised as more "traditionally" masculine than me leaves me at times feeling insecure about my own position as a man. It's a way of kinda shittily protecting yourself from your own insecurities by dragging someone else whom you envy down to your own perceived level by association of the apparent mediocrity of their interests.
In another way though, I do think the underlying mechanism of it is in fact gender-neutral, although the specific framing of calling a woman mid is a pretty specifically male-coded version of it, that externalises the anxiety rather than internalising it. I think about it a lot in terms of that age-old trope of the woman who finds a sense of empowerment in aggressively rejecting her suitors despite their obvious status and wealth and occasionally even physical beauty, as a sign of superior (and/or just plain idiosyncratic sometimes) discernment and taste of her own. By denying the most conventionally coveted individuals their outward recognitions of value, you establish yourself as someone who's capable of resisting the otherwise hopelessly frustrating and often seemingly inescapable definitions of who "wins" in society and who doesn't. Of course, I also could easily buy that that entire trope in itself is a feminised approximation of male patriarchal envy, so...
Regardless, I'm glad you covered this! It's an interesting topic and something I never really thought seriously about it for any sustained period until now, so thank you for creating a space to do so.
Hope what I am about to say is germane. Curious as well if (straight) women ever experience the same feelings about male actors vs. their characters.
Jenna Fischer is quite lovely but I am smitten by "Pam".
Lizzy Caplan is fetching but give me "Libby Epstein". (Fleishman was a fool to not go for her)
Cristin Milioti - sparkling as herself but I want Sarah Wilder.
Victoria Pedretti - it ought to be illegal to go out in public so cute but I want her to be Nell Crain. (for a while anyway - "Hill House" fans will understand)
and so on ...
I remember an interview from way back, where Julia Louis-Dreyfus said something to the effect of "I'm not as pretty as Elaine". I understand what she was getting at.
My best guess as to why I experience the "wow" factor more with these women as characters even more so than their "ordinary" selves (which, face it, aint bad either) is the confidence or "way they carry themselves" playing these parts.
I wonder if that is related to what one often hears about how women value "confidence" as a turn-on when evaluating men?
Of course! Big fan of Mick on "Benidorm."
my sister watched that. I'll ask her, I suspect she'd agree.